On Nice Guys November 24, 2006
Posted by charmingbutsingle in Uncategorized.trackback
I am so tired of hearing about how Nice Guys finish last and women never give them a chance because we are too busy having inappropriate relationships with Jerks who treat us like crap all of the time. So tired that I could bang my head against the wall until my obviously Nice-Guy-hating-brain splatters all over the place.
People are not so easily categorized into “nice” and “jerk.” The guys who you think are “nice” sometimes turn out to be jerks and the jerks could actually be good guys. As humans, we are more complicated than that. We all have our moments. And the people who are stuck at the ends of the spectrum, those men who truly are 100 percent “nice” or 100 percent “jerk” are actually really boring and impossible to talk to. Because the interesting stuff about humans isn’t found in the extremes. It’s found in the middle, where us normal people live, balancing our good intentions and kind natures against our darker side that is more likely to misbehave and call people names, gossip, sleep around, act cocky and generally not always be polite.
In short, sometimes the flaws are what attract us to people. Sometimes the flaws are what make people not boring.
The thing is – I do like really kind-hearted people. I don’t always flock to the biggest ass in the room. I’ve spent plenty of nights talking to plenty of nice, quiet guys who never made the move to ask me out. Maybe they weren’t attracted to me. Maybe they were shy. But they were nice, and I flirted with them and nothing. (Not that every guy has to ask me out in order for him to be considered nice.) So I resent the notion that I (and other women) don’t like Nice Guys.
I know as well as the next person that dating is hard. I put myself out there only to be shot down and frankly most days I’d rather hibernate in my apartment eating grapes and playing Sodoku than gussy myself up to go try to find a guy. It is tiring. (Because, FYI a lot of you Nice Guys aren’t as Nice as you think you are.) And I complain about it a lot. But ultimately I know that I have to go after what I want. And since I want a relationship more than a nerdy ability to order numbers correctly in boxes, I get my kind single ass out there and deal with spinster jokes from my family and the embarrassment and indignity of falling flat on your face trying to woo a guy or being completely rejected by someone who you thought liked you.
So, no, I don’t feel sorry for grown men who sit in the corner and complain about how no women like them because they are Nice Guys. Do you know how many men I have flat out turned down in recent months? Two. One who is cocky and arrogant and another who tried to feel me up a in a parking lot and called me like a psycho five times in the span of 30 minutes. Neither of them were Nice Guys. And neither of them got what they wanted.
What I’m saying is that I go out with normal people who ask me out. At least once. But as long as you’re the bitter Nice Guy sitting in the corner feeling sorry for himself because all of the women dislike you and only date jerks who are going to eventually hurt them because they’re not Nice like you, I can promise you that no woman is going to go out with you. Because she doesn’t even know you are interested in dating. Because your pathological fear of rejection has driven you so far into that corner that you’re no longer a nice, datable guy. You’re a creepy quiet dude who freaks women out because you stare at them inappropriately.
I know, I know. Women can be evil witches. And so can men. We’ve all got baggage, people. And as long as you keep deluding yourself into thinking that women don’t like you because you’re a Nice Guy and not a Jerk, you are going to be alone.
It would be like me refusing to try to date men because I’m not a skinny size two with perfect breasts and a flat stomach and Men Only Like Hot Models. I believed this for many years and consequently kept myself out of the game because I convinced myself that I wasn’t sexy and beautiful. You know what? There are men who like ladies with hips and a little more to love – and I know this because if there weren’t, I’d still be waiting for my first kiss. You have to carry yourself with confidence and walk with a sense of pride. It took me more than twenty years to truly become a datable woman and to realize that I would be a good mate, despite all of my shortcomings – or perhaps because of them.
My point? Stop blaming your dating failures on Nice Guys Finishing Last and Evil Women Who Only Like Jerks. (We’ll let the Evil Women Who Only Like Jerks keep the Men Who Only Like Hot Models occupied and away from all of us Regular People Who Just Want Someone To Talk To.) Don’t be afraid to just be a Normal Guy who is attracted to certain women and who would be a good boyfriend and who isn’t going to freak out and hate the world every time someone turns him down.
P.S. And if one more person sends me that “I’m sorry” e-mail forward about the guy who is sorry that he stood by some tragic girl as her friend and held back her hair when she puked and let her walk all over him only to be ignored and treated like just a friend … I will go postal. Because I’ve been the female equivalent of that, so I resent the idea that women are the evil purveyors of mean while the men all sit around innocently doing our bidding. Also, if you are that guy and you like that girl, then tell her how you feel. And if she rejects you, trust me, it will hurt like nothing has ever hurt before in your whole life and you might feel like you have a gaping wound and are bleeding for everyone to see. But ultimately, you’ll know. And the feeling isn’t fatal. I promise.
Thank you.
I recently broke up with a Nice Guy. At first he was great, and after dating pot-smoking, alcoholic, egocentric, borderline-abusing Jerks (certified, with degrees and credentials) I thought I was in Heaven with Nice Guy. Eventually, the flaws started popping out, including the fact that he was “too nice” to break up with me (he’s the Nice Guy, he couldn’t do something mean like that!) so instead he keep treating my like crap but being nice enough to keep me strung along, and every time I’d bring up the problems and ask, “Is this over?” he’d vehemently say no. Until he made me be the Royal Jerk - even after I clearly listed all the problems, he emailed me trying to twist the beakup into being my fault - because he was willing to work on it (while he was out with his buddies or playing with his dog) and I wasn’t (as I sat at home waiting for him to call, as he said he would). How “nice”!
Last night I had a very frustrating conversation with a guy who complained about girls being all about who’s the most attractive guy there, and who has better game. He said he has never been approached by a woman - this is after I was violently hitting on him via IM, and had repeatedly asked him to meet me at coffeeshops and karaoke bars. I tried to explain to him the concept of talking, smiling, flirting hello-these-are-come-ons but he was not getting it. I guess he wanted a woman to walk up to him and say, “HI I’M TRYING TO HIT ON YOU SO I’M GOING TO BUY YOU A DRINK.” In the meantime, he was going to sit in a corner and be angry that women don’t give him a chance.
In college i dated this guy for a little over a month. He was my best friend’s boyfriend’s best friend (got that?). My friend had known him for years, and certified him as Classic Grade A Nice Guy. Incredibly sweet, had been with this one girlfriend for 4 yrs and had been the best guy to her all along. They broke up several months before he and I started dating.
At first, he was great. But when he decided things were getting “too serious” he just stopped calling, or called and made tentative plans that were never formalized. He strung me along like that for a good 2 weeks before I was finally like “Um, dude, what the hell’s going on?”
So, basically, he was THE Nice Guy, yet b/c he wasn’t over his ex yet he wasn’t so nice to me. So, as you said, even the Nice Guys aren’t always so nice.
This is an excellent post, well done!
Indeed, I do think the “Nice Guy syndrome” is the male equivalent of the female “I am not a hot babe” syndrome. In the end, it all boils down to the sufferer’s own insecurity and self-image. This acknowledging that it genuinely is difficult for a shy person to approach someone.
You also write:
There are men who like ladies with hips and a little more to love
As a male, I can only strongly support this statement. Many, if not most, males are not adverse to some flesh on the bone at all and highly prefer it over anorexic.
Loved this post! Exactly what I’d like to say to some of the on-line whines I read. Also, what I’d like to say to my X and certain friends, who still can’t figure out why we’re divorced because “he’s such a nice guy.”
Nice is great. Communication and being real are better.
Also, thanks for the bit about liking ourselves enough to get out there even if we are not size 2 (or size 0!!!!!) model-like waifs. Confidence is sexy.
bravo on this post!
I recently got out of a year long relationship with a “nice guy.” While he was good on paper (held doors open, always drove when we went out, paid for expensive dinners and outings), in the end, he couldn’t give me what I wanted, which was long-term commitment and a sense of security. He may have been a gentleman and a nice guy, but he was certainly not relationship material and still needed a few more years to mature. Nice guys can be overrated.
Great post! Here’s my theory: guys don’t want to date the “nice girl” either. They want to date the “psycho girl”. My best friend (great friend to me, psycho with her boyfriends) has always treated her bf’s like crap, and they always eat it up, they bend over backwards trying to make her happy until she finally dumps them and they’re completely destroyed. I don’t get it: I’ve always treated my bf’s great, I’m supportive, tell them to go out with their friends, “have a great time!”, don’t nag them, don’t tell them how to dress, I’m always up for sex, happily give bj’s, whatever, and I always get dumped and they always end up with some bitchy girl they can’t make happy. What gives!??! (and I’m not fugly, ok, I’m a cute girl, in shape, I’m smart, educated, have great friends, like to have fun, so it’s not that)
Aptly said Charming. LOVE the post. Every part of it rings true. Keep these thoughts coming - you have a way of articulating what many of us are thinking. Bravo.
Well said. As a dating/relationship coach, teaching those Nice Guys what women are looking for, I can sympathize.
Women want a confident man, not one who sulks in the corner complaining that the world isn’t fair. Yes, it would be great if your neighbor’s Rottweiler saw how “nice” you were on the inside and didn’t lunge at you everytime you passed, but it’s not going to happen. At least women are more openminded. If you can get the confidence to flirt confidently, make a positive first impression, and show that you’re taking charge of your life, women will give you a chance to show how great you are.
It’s possible to be a Nice Guy who’s great with women. I like to think that I am. Blaming your woes on “being too nice” is just another manifestation of the lack of confidence to step up and confront the real problem. (Which is a lack of confidence. Funny how that works.)
AMEN!
I want to print this off and pass it around to my “woe is me” male friends who constantly reveal their life’s motto as “Nice guys finish last.”
All good points here, especially on the importance of confidence, but I like to remind folks that there are no nice guys. There are plenty of guys & gals who want different things than you do who may seem nice, but it really depends on your dealings with them or what you want from them. There are plenty of guys who are perfectly nice to their spouses, BF/GF’s, or even their close family who are proper SOB’s in almost every other context.
Some day when we’ll all get lucky we find the ‘nice for us guys/gals’. Those are the guys you want. They’re usually not whining about their lot either, (at least not too loudly). This does take some time and substantial patience & often times diligent searching.
Plenty of this is age graded too. We often don’t know what we want in our early 20’s, (mostly perhaps just searching for that certain ‘hotness’). We often only discover that we want (or can tolerate) different things when we’re in our late 20’s- 30’s. Still later when we’re married in our 40’s & 50’s we’re all amazed at the kind of crap we tolerate as old marrieds! Some of this latter crap may also develop while you’re married, as in ‘the wife/husband is now disabled, and it’s a drag’, or ‘the wife/husband has been unemployed forever because of health/family issues etc’. Nothing anyone really signs on for, right? There’s plenty of delicate planning that the fates lay asunder.
So I think one of the essential issues with the nice guys/gals ’syndrome’ is really a question of different wants or a mismatch of lifestyles. Some nice guys want to get married soon. Some don’t. Ditto for the nice gals. That’s one basic difference. There’s bound to be many other differences that you could find objectionable. He doesn’t know from rap or any current music, so that’s a deal breaker for some. He can’t or won’t dance. He’s in a dead end job with little evident ambition. She can’t sing, even if she’s directing the church choir. She/he’s a cold fish, even where it counts.
There’s any number of things that might go into an internal list that people carry around in their heads of the ‘ideal’ or barely acceptable in a mate. Me, I’d try to keep it as simple as possible. Put down on paper the top 3-4 qualities you desire in a mate. Perhaps ‘Friendly, successful, intelligent, neighbor/nearby’. You’ll be amazed at how effectively that might improve the search. Of course most of the folks who are willing to take that advice are in their 30’s.
Self described ‘Nice guys & gals’ might not finish last, but sometimes their race and circumstances are a bit slower. It might take a bit longer to find a mate & to marry. Now those faster guys? They’re not waiting or marry much. There’s plenty of real biology in that, but it gets very complicated fast. But hey that’s life. It’s way more complicated than the movies, and that’s just for the good parts. The miserable parts are horribly more complicated than the movies, and often don’t end well at all. Another overly long explanation. Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
i want a nice guy. sure, like all girls i’m sometimes attracted to the bad boys but attraction is all there is. what i really want is a nice guy. but he also has to get off his nice guy ass and try and talk to me.
You are a darling. I couldn’t agree more. I dislike those people who sit in corners and complain but never take action. I’m not very attracted to the jerks, at least not in the traditional sense. What I really dislike, though, is the too nice guys who are afraid to disagree with you and don’t seem to have an independent thought in their heads. Maybe I’m a bit of a bitch, but men who are too angelic and don’t have the balls to let me know when I’m out of line are not attractive to me. I find that I say completely facetious things just to see if they’ll disagree. It’s surprising the outrageous things you can say that a man will agree with…
I feel the same way. My ex was a Nice Guy, but he was probably the extreme - the boring one. I miss him though. Sometimes it is hard to walk away from someone who was so important to us, regardless of whether or not they were right for us.
Your post is well-written, but you’re way off about the whole “Nice Guys” thing. This is further proof of why guys should never take advice from women on how to treat other women.
Okay, I take back what I said. I just read the headline and presumed it was the typical drivel about how women are looking for a good guy, etc. (when in reality they want someone who will stand up for themselves and not take their nonsense.) Upon re-reading, your take isn’t that far off from reality.
The problem with a lot of so-called “nice” guys is that they think their good intentions should make them grade-A boyfriend material, when in fact they’re so “nice” (read: timid) that they look like they don’t know what the hell they’re doing. They don’t know how to ask a woman out that doesn’t seem pitiful; they don’t know how to plan a date (they just ask the woman what she wants to do); and they don’t know how to be assertive and take charge. One of my good friends is like this, and consequently he never has dates.
The goal (at least for me) is to be manly & assertive but in a way that gives the woman what she wants without her having to tell me. A tough thing to do, but when it happens - that’s when I know I’ve found a pretty good match.
Charming - you’ve hit the nail on the head. Most so-called “nice” guys aren’t being passed over because women want assholes; it’s really just that women want men who know what they’re doing and know how to be “the man” in the relationship. When girls are 17, it may be true that they choose the jerk over the nice guy - and then it’s the girl’s fault (and her loss). But by the time we’ve grown up a bit to become men & women, “nice” guys aren’t being passed over for jerks anymore just because - now it’s the nice guy’s fault for seeming like a putz.
All of these guys who proclaim themselves to be nice guys are definitely not very nice. They’re like self-promoting politicians. Everyone knows the people who should be in office are the ones who don’t run for office. Since you have to announce your niceness to the world there must be something inherently wrong with you. I don’t go around talking about how smart I am, or how my friends think I’m funny. When you cross that line you think you are something different and special in a bad way. And that, nice guys, makes you arrogant.
Aristotle and I agree with you. His Golden Mean theory says too much of a good characteristic is a bad one and it’s good to have a bit of the negative characteristics too.
You’re a really good writer, by the way.
Yes you articulated so well! Thank you! I have been thinking alot about lately but could not find the right words to say it. Alot of guys who have that victim approach to dating and have stating that they are not datable because they are “nice” - in many ways - have become not datable just because they play the victim role too much and eventually - they are simply “not Nice at all”
As a guy who used to think he was a nice guy and that it was all her fault, I can say that it was mine and my attitude. Sure I was nice, but in the end kinda boring. I was looking to the female as a solution and that just doesn’t work. That leads to neediness and most every other bad trait that gets guys dumped. I needed to fix myself first.
As for body types…I’m thin and slightly athletic and I love short chunky women with curvy legs. I’d walk through fire for one…heh. Sure, I can worked up for the standard icon of what hollywood thinks women should look like. I’m just more into a particularly rare body type. Especially if she’s smart.
Oh ladies, refrain from talking about the psychotic medicine you are on. I was on a first date awhile back and she mentioned that she was taking lithium, but it was the lowest amount. We never went out again.
cbs, awesome blog. Thanks! Love reading it!
I think you make some very valid points. Clearly, the grumpy guy in the corner, frowning into his beer because girls “don’t like nice guys” is a tiresome creature.
These are the guys who think, “I’m nice. That should be enough.” They don’t make the first move. They sit and they wait. They show up at three in the morning. They allow themselves to be treated as doormats. And they think that somehow, you should intuit from this that they are madly in love with you.
The problem with nice guys is that many of them want you to make every single move. Not just the first move, but also every move thereafter. It gets annoying.
I know this, because I have spent periods of my life being that guy. It’s easier to reject out of hand then to jump in the game and risk being rejected.
But by the same token, I think that we use a lot of Archetypes when we talk about dating. When someone mentions the Nice Guy, they don’t usually mean the guy who’s always nice. They tend to mean the safe guy. The boring guy. The safe, boring guy - as we all know - can be a real jerk when it comes down to it.
The Archetypes don’t even really make sense half the time. And they’re unfair - even if someone is only attracted to Bad Boys, does that make her a bad person? You can’t change who you’re attracted to, after all. We all have types. If your type happens to include someone who’s going to ask you out - someone who’s going to take big risks (which will either have big payoffs or big failures) in relationships - then who can fault you?
When someone presents me with this “nice guys finish last” theory, my pat response is usually that people who don’t enter the race usually don’t win it. Many of the people who have said this to me, too, have a perfectly Nice Girl in their life. One who they would never have considered dating, not in a million years.
So yes, it’s a two-way street. I think most people are being rhetorical when they say it (am I being too generous here?), but you’re absolutely correct. It’s a laughable notion when someone says something along the lines of, “Girls don’t want nice guys.”
Hi, first time here! I love this post, you NAILED it. I’ve banged my head on the wall over this one myself, because the guys lamenting the loudest about being ‘too nice to get dates’ are nine times out of ten NOT VERY NICE.
It’s not that simple. I’ll agree with that many nice guys have developed self-image problems, as well as insecurities about being rejected. Therefore most prefer to be alone rather than risk said rejection. Not to say they won’t whine and complain about it. There’s also many who are just socially inept, they would need a guiding hand not to put their foot in their mouth. That is mostly a nervous/lack-of-confidence thing and can be corrected. Then you also have the woman-on-a-pedastal types which you, nor any other mortal female, will ever live up to. Then you haven’t even considered that you are probably part of it. You may have some of the same problems and will sit hoping that the other comes over…forever. Perhaps they are geeky rather than trendy or are earthy, also not a socialite delight. what about physical imperfections? Can you overlook them, or are you as shallow as the men you complain about? Finally, there is also the point of whether you are looking for a short-term or long-term relationship. Non-stop fun can happen in dates. Long term relationships will have fun times as well slow boring times. Are you looking for someone the same as you or someone that complements you. It’s also a matter of give and take, sometimes you get to do the things you want, sometimes he gets to do the things he wants - even if it is something that you have no real interest in. You do it because you CARE about the other person and want to be with them more than just being with them soley on your terms. Oh, and I’ll tell you this, nice guys are’t particularly by drunk women. While SOME hang out at bars, or go with friends, most do not.
grumpy guy in the corner:
i read this blog: its the same stuff i read all the time, its the guys fault never the woman’s.
guys have to be self-confident..have self-esteem..be assertive..things that u say can be fixed
easier said than done..for a lot of guys its damn near impossible
grumpy guy in the corner:
“Because she doesn’t even know you are interested in dating. Because your pathological fear of rejection has driven you so far into that corner that you’re no longer a nice, datable guy. You’re a creepy quiet dude who freaks women out because you stare at them inappropriately.”
thats why we sit in corners..with comments like that….equating being shy and afraid to approach women to being a creepy quiet dude. Women are evil witches.
Grumpy Guy in the Corner — I think you read this post selectively. Go back. Re-read it. Do I blame all dating problems on men? Uh, no. My beef is with constantly being told that women hate Nice Guys and feeling that some men hide behind this “Nice Guys Finish Last” mantra because they really lack the confidence to ask a woman out. So they blame women for rejecting them before they even try. To be fair, I even give an example of a female equivalent of this attitude, which is “I can’t date because Men Only Like Hot Models and I am Not a Size 2.” Really, we all just need to chill out, take a deep breath and act like normal people instead of hiding behind excuses.
Anyway, that was my point. I think you’re too busy feeling wronged by the women of the world to get it.
Also, I’m sorry, but there is a difference between being shy and being creepy. And maybe women confuse the two sometimes. But have you ever been on the receiving end of a silent, pointed stare for hours on end? Feels creepy. End of story.
grumpy guy in the corner:
yes i get it
yes i do feel wronged by women of the world
women confuse being shy and creepy all the time
no haven’t been on the receiving end
No woman is looking for a nice guy; but in general, people do like to be around nice people…just watch an a-hole make an arse out of themself and witness people clear out a 10 foot circle around them.
What women really want is a good looking guy. So for that grumpy guy in the corner…clean up your diet and hit the gym. It’s the only path to salvation.
well your honest about the first part, if not what are woman looking for in a guy?
about cleaning up my diet..is that the best advice you have!
Really grumpy guy in the corner.
Here’s a post from a forum someone wrote:
There are Good women in this world, and there are women that can only described as EVIL.The first thing I want to say about EVIL women is that it is important to spot them early!And once spotted, it is important not to have any type of contact with them if I want to enjoy complete happiness in my love life.
The best defense against EVIL women is knowing the type of woman I want.
When I know what I want, my search for the woman that’s right for me becomes much narrower and focused, so instantly I filter out a great many of the women I’ll be wasting my time with.
They are also women who care nothing about themselves, and getting emotionally attach to someone who care nothing for their well-being is painful endeavor.
BEWARE SINGLE MOTHER!!!If I am getting involved with a women who has a kid, I am opening myself up for a great deal of trouble down the line.Why?
Because if she got pregnant once by some other guy, chances are she’ll get pregnant by me.Even if I use birth control!And if she DOES get pregnant, chances are she’ll go ahead and have the baby.This means that whether I break up or not, I’ll be stuck paying child support fot the next 18 years!Now, if the idea of shelling out my hard-earned cash for a kid I never wanted to a woman I don’t like for the next 18 years of your life doesn’t appeal to me.STAY AWAY FROM SINGLE MOMS!
In addition to that warning above, single moms will always choose their kids over me, which means I will always get a short end of the stick when it come to her time and attention.So if I want lots of sex and adventures in my relationship, I can throw that away when dealing with a single mom!!
Watchout for women who are too clingy and get jealous easily!!these are women who are incredibly insecure, and most likely they will cheat in me!!In fact, the more jealous they are, the more likely it is they are sleeping around.this is because people tend to project their own behavior on others, and if they think I am cheating on them, chances are it’s because they, themselves, are cheating(or thinking about it!).
Watch how the woman treat her family.Typically, women who have good relationship with their mother AND father are well balanced women who will treat me well.If they hate EITHER of their parents, chances are they’re going to end up treating me the same way.
As a side note to this, look at how her parents treat each other if I get the chance.If their relationship is a good one, chances are the relationship I have with her will be good too!The same istrue if the parents have a BAD relationship.
Also, lok to see if the woman I like also like children.It doesn’t matter if I want to have kids or not.If a woman does not like kids, that’s a statement about her own capacity to love and nurture!If she hates kids, then it’s a very good possibility she is incapable of deep commitment and personal connection, and will end up using and abusing the man she is with.
I would like to add the following:
1. Look out for women who smoke..speaking about taking care of yourself
2. Women who have piercings and tattoos…someone please explain why!
3. Only care about money..being materialistic
4. Drinks too much
The list goes on
Really Grumpy Guy in the Corner
Criss wrote:
Last night I had a very frustrating conversation with a guy who complained about girls being all about who’s the most attractive guy there, and who has better game. He said he has never been approached by a woman - this is after I was violently hitting on him via IM, and had repeatedly asked him to meet me at coffeeshops and karaoke bars. I tried to explain to him the concept of talking, smiling, flirting hello-these-are-come-ons but he was not getting it. I guess he wanted a woman to walk up to him and say, “HI I’M TRYING TO HIT ON YOU SO I’M GOING TO BUY YOU A DRINK.” In the meantime, he was going to sit in a corner and be angry that women don’t give him a chance.
I never get approached by women either. A lot of guys, included me, don’t realize were getting hit on, and sometimes we want the direct approach. thats why we sit in the corner and be angry that women don’t give them a chance.
Really Grumpy Guy in the Corner
Hi,
I found your blog via google by accident and have to admit that youve a really interesting blog
Just saved your feed in my reader, have a nice day